‍Rachel Allen: And do you wanna be Stef or Stef?

Stef Nikitas: Stef, when it's Stephanie. It's weird.

Rachel Allen: Too formal. Too formal. Okay. Makes me sit up straighter because I feel like I'm in trouble or being scolded.

Stef Nikitas: Fair. Well, welcome to the conversation. I am joined here today with Stef Nikitas, who leads talent acquisition. A little fun fact that I just learned about Stef is she actually grew up in Germany and speaking with her, you would never know.

Rachel Allen: I'm here with Rachel Allen, who is, uh, senior director of, uh, talent acquisition. And you lead up, uh, all of talent acquisition. That's right. Within the business. And then fun fact, I learned about you today is you are a Dallas Cowboys fan, which unfortunately being the Bears fan in the room here, she has inherited our terrible head coach. Um, it's been rough. We'll leave it there.

The Two Sides of Automation and AI in TA

Rachel Allen: Let's talk automation and AI. That's been the big thing these days, right? And there's, it's two-sided and we're really struggling a little bit for us. Like they're on one side and there's a lot of excitement about what it could bring and what it can do for us and how it can free up the energy. Yeah. Of folks to, to focus on times that matter more. Right. The moments that matter.

On the flip side though, right? Our candidates are telling us that there is this perception that they don't trust it. There's, there's not the trust. So trying to think of a way to change the conversation, change that perception when it comes to our candidates. And we've talked about this, that the candidate experience is our North Star. It is, that's what we really value and care about. And, and so we're in this, this interesting era right now where there's so much we see that could happen and could be done, but at the same time, um, there's this stigma, you know, from our candidates that, that the technology, the reason they're not getting the jobs done. So, wanted to talk a little bit about that. What are, what do you think are some things that we could do to help educate the candidates around what it really means to use automation in the process and, and how it can actually help them, benefit them?

Stef Nikitas: Yeah, there's a couple of ways. And you and I are both in the same boat where we work for companies where our candidates are our customers and vice versa, right? So the branding piece of it, the experience is so essential and so important that the human aspect has to remain within our processes, right? Because our candidates, if they have a shitty experience, it's gonna result in a shitty experience on the... Well, they're not shopping with us. Exactly. Right? Yeah. And they're gonna tell their friends. Yep. And their family, and then, you know, it all goes downhill from there.

So I think for us, like the, the word intention comes to mind. Okay. And then in, in my world, like everything that we do with automation, there has to be the human element still present in the process. So whatever we automate, it has to be intentional and it still needs to have a human at the end of it. Yeah. So we'll never be the company that automates the entire process where you like, apply and show up within 15 minutes and you've never talked to a person and you've been given a job offer. It just doesn't work in our business model. Right? You don't have that experience in the store when you're a consumer. You're never gonna have it as a candidate. Right.

But I think exactly to what you said, the, the buzzword, everything is automation right now. Everybody wants AI for everything, but what does it actually mean? Is it true automation or are we just looking at technology?

Rachel Allen: Yes. Yeah. Well said. And, and, and some things that we're call that is being labeled AI or automation now are things that we've done forever. Exactly. And, and, and now it's just coded as AI or automation, and now it's the bad thing. So even just, um, knockout questions, we've done that in our ATSs forever. Exactly. And now it's, you know, getting re-looked at and that's automation and it's not working and it... Correct.

Stef Nikitas: And all it is, is it the steps that a human being would take anyway and automating it. Right? But it is no decision behind it. There is no intelligence behind it. It is still, um, a process driven by the humans. Um, and I think you called out a really good point, just how, where can we be intentional? Exactly. Of keeping human elements in the process. And then it magnifies it. Exactly. Right. I've, I've been telling people, I really do think being human is what's gonna be our superpower.

Rachel Allen: A hundred percent. And we're gonna go back to basics.

Stef Nikitas: And being human is what's going to differentiate us. So those that have strong, um, soft skills and, yeah. The empathy and can show that I think are gonna do really well in this era. Um, but I, I do think that there is a, a really happy medium that we can find with the right amount of automation and technology to enable and free up the energy of humans to be human in the moments that matter. Correct.

Rachel Allen: I think it should start anybody that's looking into automation in any way, shape, or form or technology, let's call it. Yeah. 'Cause they're different, right? Yep. Automation, like it takes something away from what you currently have and does it for you. Technology aids you in that process. Yeah. Right. That's where the intent comes. But I would even peel it back further and say, what's the problem you're trying to solve?

Stef Nikitas: Amen. That's what... Start there. Yep.

Rachel Allen: When you said back, back to basics, that's exactly what I'm thinking. What's your problem statement? And go from there. Yeah. Don't just bring the automation or the AI into the picture before you even know what you're trying to solve for.

Stef Nikitas: Yeah. And I feel like right now everybody's running to just get the AI before they have even decided what they're trying to solve for.

Rachel Allen: Oh, 100%. It's the shiny object. It is.

Stef Nikitas: And you just wanna bring it in and make it work. And then I also am trying to encourage, so we did the same thing. We, we, we, um, automated a lot of our hiring at the store level. But a business decision was made first before we ever discovered technology. And then based on what the decision the business made, I decided, um, I needed to do something to enable them to be successful. And the answer was technology in a part. And then we did use automation. Yep. But we started with what am I solving for? Exactly. What is the business wanting to do, not let me bring in this shiny object. Exactly. And then something else I'm always talking to people about is I really discouraged people having a, an AI strategy.

Rachel Allen: Yes. Right? You can't have an AI strategy. Your strategy is the business strategy.

Stef Nikitas: What are you solving for, to your point? Yeah. What are the challenges? What are the problems? AI is a channel, is an option of a solution that you could possibly use. Um, but to have, let's say an an HR AI strategy, that doesn't make sense. And then if you, and if you start there, you're gonna be disappointed in the results that you get because you're forcing adoption on something that was, is not solving problems that people had to begin with.

Navigating the "World of Gray"

Rachel Allen: So for AI, um, I know we've, we are starting to, uh, you know, build out the whole process and how you can even get it approved. So what, how about y'all? How, what does that look like?

Stef Nikitas: Uh, yeah. Um, I would say from an automation standpoint, compared to where we are now from back when we were having conversations with Paradox to get us to where we are today. I'm not gonna lie, I mean that, that process probably, it was quite the journey and I think it, it pressure tested our company. Yeah. In a sense of, okay, there's this new shiny object, which back during COVID, like, you know, everybody kind of got, was at the beginning of that cycle of bringing AI or automation into the, um, different segments of the business. For us it was talent acquisition. Yeah.

And my legal team, I mean, that's the reason we have AI now within like a, an AI function or InfoSec teams. Right. That now look at these contracts from like a data privacy information security standpoint, right. And how, how is data moved between the platforms, in our case Workday and Paradox and what's being exchanged, and then how does it look from a candidate standpoint? What are the risks that everybody's exposed to? Right. And everybody within the organization that is involved in these conversations, particularly legal and IT are gonna have very strong opinions. Yes. Right. And I mean, there were moments where I thought, oh God, is this gonna fall apart? We're never gonna get it. Yeah. And we were able to get it, and it kind of set the precedent for a lot of things that came after.

And even now when we try to make changes or bring in additional technology, you reference that. We reference learning process. Yeah. But every time you think you got it figured out, they come up, they being legal, come up with something else, they're like, well, the law changed over here, or there's something new, which is true, or, you know, we now have to consider this, or we have to consider that. And you're like, oh my God, you know, now what, is this ever gonna end? Um, and I talked about it at breakfast, like when it comes to vendors in general, they just have to have a lot of patience. Yes. And they have to be very open and transparent on what, what is the data flow and how is it gonna work between whatever platform to theirs so that companies can really understand when they explain it to their internal teams, this is how the data flows, here's our risk, here are the, here's the exposure to data in general from a privacy standpoint, but it's not gonna get any easier. No. The more technology that's coming to the table in our world, the harder it's gonna get. And then let's talk about legislation that's coming around it too.

Rachel Allen: Yeah. And that's, I think, the hardest part because it is some trailblazing and you, and you used the word precedence, so you set precedence for your company as a whole, but, and you know, if you think macro, there is no precedence yet. Correct. Right. So yes, new legal, new legal, um, situations are coming up and, but there hasn't been any, any cases yet that you can say, oh, well this is what happened here, so this is what this is going to mean. And so our teams are trying to interpret AI, as you said at in comparison to what I just told you, it's same.

Stef Nikitas: So, but it wasn't, but it, it, but it was, um, an evolution as well. So now there's an AI team, and now there is an AI committee, and now there's a... Yeah. But when we were, um, first going through with Paradox, none of that existed. And some of that was built out of the process of bringing in a new technology like that. And, um, fortunately, Paradox was a really great partner and so patient and in answering the questions and, and catered to us, right? Yeah. What are our concerns? What are our challenges? What did our legal team have heartburn about? Yep. And took the time to adjust based on what we were comfortable with. Yep.

And each company is a little bit different, but I think the biggest problem is, you know, is it is this world of gray right now. It is. And we kind of have to wait for some precedents to be set. We're trailblazing and we just, we don't know what we don't know. Yeah. But there can be some really great things, but you need to make sure you're doing it in the right way. Yeah. And so it's, it's just a, um, it's exciting. But then it's also, you, you just kind of wanna get to that next level, at least for us. Right. There's this start, stop, start, stop when you're having to, well wait, what does this mean? And, yeah, start over and re-look at it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

The Future of Talent Acquisition

Rachel Allen: So it's a fun and exciting time to it. TA... It is. So speaking of trailblazing, like when you think of the next 12 to 18 months, yeah. What gives you headaches? What excites you and what's next in your world of TA?

Stef Nikitas: Yeah, that's a really great question. So headaches, I think the headaches are just really navigating a world of gray and bringing a team along with it. Right? So we, we are in a, a role to, um, lead others along in this. And, and so they look to us for answers in a place we don't have answers yet. Yeah. And, and so I, I think it's important for us as an industry or as TA professionals to make sure we have a point of view and that we're, we've got a seat at the table and that we, um, really help drive the direction that it can go versus just waiting for it to happen to us. Yep. But I, I think that's been the, the biggest not, I guess, challenge. Yeah. It's just how do we navigate this area of gray and bring everybody along with us. Yeah.

Um, something I always talk to my team about. Right. You don't, nobody likes to feel like things are happening to them. They want to make sure things are happening with them. Yeah. And, and, and so being intentional, back to that word of stopping and pausing and making sure the rest of the team is understanding where we are as a whole and what our strategy is and what the direction is. Yeah. And then come along for bringing them along for the ride. Exactly.

But making sure we still anchor in candidate experience regardless of the direction it goes. Because I do think over the next 12 to 18 months, um, HR is gonna look different. I think the department as a whole is gonna look different. I think TA teams are gonna look different. There's gonna be a greater focus, who knows? But this is me hypothesizing, right? Yeah. Um, a greater focus on, uh, the human touch and the human element. And so I, I think all recruitment will be a little bit more like executive recruitment is. And, and be very high touch in, in the moments that matter through the recruitment process.

And then I also think there's gonna be a team of folks that are overseeing and managing the AI and the assistant, and make sure that there's not any hallucinations. Make sure that it's working the way it is. Make sure that there's validations around bias. I think there's gonna be more of a, a QC, you know, team that hasn't really existed in TA before. And so I think that's gonna look a little bit different. Oh. And what keeps you up at night? What keeps me up at night? I think all of that. Um, and then not at all much, you know, not, not, there's nothing going on in this space at all. Right. Um, yeah. I think, I think all of that really is because, um, trying to learn what's coming, trying to get ahead of it, trying to have a point of view, trying to think differently about the way things are gonna go. Bringing the team along, making sure no one's left behind.

And we talked about candidates having a perception of, you know, the dirty word of automation or technology, but so do our recruiters. They're scared their jobs are getting taken away. Yeah. And so I just keep trying to focus on, hey, yeah, your job's probably gonna look different. And you have control over what you wanna do. So if you don't like what the job turns into and what it looks like, you can choose maybe to go in a different direction. Yeah. But there is still absolutely going, absolutely. Gonna be talent acquisition. Uh, A hundred percent. Yeah. The most important asset of any company is people. And who brings the people in? People. We do. So we're people people, right. Yeah. And so the job not gonna go away, but it's gonna look different. And that it's, that scares people.

Rachel Allen: Which, it's interesting you bring that up, 'cause I just made our jobs look different. I did.

Stef Nikitas: Tell me about.

Rachel Allen: So there's this never ending cycle of, uh, and I don't know if it's so much a cycle or if it's complaints where our recruiters are seen as order takers, uh huh, transactional. Right. They wait until a requisition comes up. There is zero proactiveness, there's no seat at the table. There is no anticipation of what's the next step, right. Where they can actually... Proactive. So we've been working really hard within and my world to really create kind of that advisor role.

Stef Nikitas: Love that.

Rachel Allen: To elevate kind of that talent acquisition function where it's not just, we're here to recruit for an open seat. So what does that look like? We basically looked at our entire process. So we, we created what's called Ace Way of Hiring. It's our rec to check, everything that goes into it from the moment we get a requisition or somebody talks about there's going to be an opening until it's in the system officially open. What happens after every step until the person walks in the door through the onboarding.

Stef Nikitas: Loves it. That's what I mean by rec to check. Yeah.

Rachel Allen: And so we are looking holistically at the process. And then we have obviously different ways of doing it for high volume versus exempt warehousing versus subsidiary sales, for example, versus corporate. Right. So we have a couple of different streams of it. And then how does every step in the process and aligned to the role of the recruiter. So I did a full delegation of responsibilities. We have four levels of recruiters in our organization and I actually use Copilot to help me with this. To align the duties. Yeah. The job to what our Ace Way of Hiring process looks like. So it's no longer the job is aligned to tenure or the person, the job is now aligned to the function, which I feel like is important in this journey.

Stef Nikitas: Yeah. It's getting closer to the business,

Rachel Allen: It's getting closer to the business so that it becomes more of a strategic business partner. And then so aligning that and then peppering in what are the expectations going to be of this role of tomorrow to, to match those expecta- to match the business. Right. So is it more proactive sourcing? Is it talent intelligence like pulling market data to bring to the hiring manager so that they have a picture and an idea before the job is even open. What are we looking at? Like how competitive is this market for this role?

Stef Nikitas: Does it even exist? Does it exist? Is this a purple unicorn? Yeah. Right.

Rachel Allen: Or are we actually fishing in a pond that exists. Yeah. With fish to fish from. Yeah.

Stef Nikitas: Sounds we should be. I could totally get, you know what I mean?

Rachel Allen: Do we need to switch ponds? Exactly. Yeah. And then like whatever technology stack do we have, that's a part of it. Building that into to make sure that there's utilization. Right. Because our budgets are every year becoming tighter. We're being asked more, more the metrics and ROIs. So like you said, aligning the business. Yeah. To the function. And then re- So what we did in, in all of that, we realigned the RDQs, role description questionnaires, is what we call those, to the Ace Way of Hiring process. And basically rolled that out to my team. So they now know not only exactly what's expected of them, but they now know what a realistic career path looks like. That's not just based on tenure. Yeah. Because the skillset of an entry level recruiter and what they do day to day is gonna look very different to a senior talent acquisition partner. Right. They're gonna be much more strategic and influential and advisory in their role. Plus they're gonna be much more proactive and influential to that hiring manager than an entry-level recruiter would be. Yeah. So I feel like that is a big part of kind of creating more of that intentional piece as part of that process. And then aligning it to that Ace Way of Hiring, which then helps create your candidate experience that you're trying to go for.

Stef Nikitas: Which then aligns to your values, which helps to put your EVP, which then helps your employer branding strategy.

Rachel Allen: Exactly. It all ties. It all... It all has together. And it's, and then you can use the, the right language and the right words and then it's giving a clearer picture to your candidates. Yes. Of the Ace way. Yep. Because you've, you've embedded it in the way that you do your recruitment.

Stef Nikitas: We even went as far as putting it on our career site. So we just relaunched last Wednesday.

Rachel Allen: So like what to expect from the experience. Exactly.

Stef Nikitas: On a career site. We are about to launch a new career site and that's something that we're gonna do too. So I'll have to get with you. Reference my... Looks like it. Yeah. So we at the bottom of each, um, 'cause we did pages by, um, vertical, so similar to you where you have different brands represented, a candidate, obviously in your world there is more brand recognition around. In my world, nobody knows what Emery Jensen is in relation to Ace, for example. Right. So on the career site, we do a great job of each page kind of unfolding that complexity of business. Yeah. And then within that page at the bottom we have FAQs, we have, um, hiring process and we also have how to prepare for the recruitment. Yeah. Process within Ace.

And kind of the secondary thought in all of that is to hold our managers accountable to the Ace Way of Hiring.

Stef Nikitas: Yes. Because it's now on the website. Yes. Candidates know what they are expecting. 100%.

Rachel Allen: And I think, you know, that's something that maybe that's a little bit of what keeps me up at night going back to that question is how do we make sure, how do we help the business understand this is an us problem, not a TA problem. Correct. Right. Um, when, I don't know about you, but we measure, um, NPS, so we measure what our, what our candidates think of the process. And often the feedback we get when interacting with a recruiter is quite positive. But then the feedback that we'll get from potentially the, the panel or the interview stage or the manager stage, there's a lot of opportunity and it's always just kind of seen as well that's TA's problem to solve. Yeah. To make sure that they make the experience right for the candidate. That something we're really going on a road show right now is, is emphasizing and using data to emphasize the story of our candidates are our customers. Yep. And our cus- our candidates vote with dollars when they don't have a great experience and they love that will tell us that they're not gonna come back in the store. So we did something recently called the Candy Awards. Oh, yeah. Um, through Survale. And they do something called a resentment rate. And the resentment...

Stef Nikitas: It's a humbling experience.

Rachel Allen: It is a very humbling experience. Especially when you, when you, you know, when when you're in sales and retail, right? Yep. The B2Bs not quite as um, extreme. But, uh, it was really great information. Yeah. Because it told us our candidates flat, they, they measure a resentment rate, which is really measuring the relationship. Did the relationship change? And our candidates would tell us sometimes if they had a bad experience, they would never shop with us again. Yeah. And then you can turn that, they have something called a resentment calculator and you can turn that into what dollars actually look like. So we are going on a road show internally to say, here's X amount of dollars we're potentially losing because we didn't treat our candidates right in the experience. And we can't forget they're our customers and they're telling us that based on a recruitment experience, they may not come shop with us again. Yeah. And so, um, we're going on a road show right now to, to, you know, again, getting closer to the business aligning the strategy of the businesses and the challenges that we have, um, and being a true partner, um, and, and bringing them along with us to maybe change that too. So that's awesome. Um, but I definitely wanna get you, get with you on the career site 'cause we're, we're gonna be launching in in December, January, so...

Stef Nikitas: Oh, that's exciting. Um, it's exciting. Yeah.

Rachel Allen: Some of the things that you were talking about, you know, you're adjusting what your team looks, looks like and getting closer to the business, being proactive instead of reactive. Yep. And it really kind of all goes into, um, workforce planning. It does. And that is something I think most companies are trying to crack the code on to get really good at that. Yep. But what's interesting right now, and I've been having some conversations around it, is that in fact, I talked to someone who's not even calling it workforce anymore and they're calling it total resource planning or work planning. Because if you think about it, it's, you're really trying to understand how the work gets done as a whole and how do you resource behind that work to get done. And now that includes AI. Sometimes that might be an, an AI assistant potentially, or maybe it's automation that's still getting the work done. Um, and so are we making sure that we're including that when we're having conversations around, when we look at who's gonna retire, what is the retention rate? What is your turnover rate? What is, you know, is this going to, what do we want to, um, RPO, is there going to be a contingent labor force? Is there a part-time full when you're looking at all of that? Now there's this new category. Yeah. Of AI assistance getting done.

And then, um, something that I think is interesting is there's already, you know, some companies that are combining the CHRO and the CTO role. Which I think is interesting.

Stef Nikitas: That is very interesting.

Rachel Allen: And the CTO world is, is saying, you know, listen, we're gonna be the ones that hire these AI assistants. Um, and versus it being something that happens in HR. And so I, I don't know where it's going to land, but I think it's our job to have a point of view. Yeah. And make sure we get ahead of it. Because one of the things that HR is really good about is, is, well, we're human resources. Yeah. You keep the human in it.

Stef Nikitas: Going to business of people.

Rachel Allen: With the business of people. I think you can integrate getting, getting, enabling some of that work to get done through assistants. I don't think the hiring of assistants should be apart from your total agree resource.

Stef Nikitas: I agree. You know what I'm saying? I agree.

Rachel Allen: And so I, I, yeah. A little concerned that maybe that's something that's keeping me up at night, a little concerned that is going in that potentially could go in that direction. So yeah. Just some things that we need to think about.

Stef Nikitas: So, yeah. I think, 'cause we, it's funny that you bring that up, 'cause the way I look at it and what I would call it is like talent intelligence. Yeah. To me that includes what's top of funnel, all of your, your advertisement, right. Feeding the funnel and, and your employment branding, your EVP, your talent marketing, whatever you, you kind of put out there to the masses. And then the actual recruitment process, which is our core business really. Right. Like what we do. Right. But then once they're in the business, and I don't know how it is for you, a lot of times, like I'm being asked about retention, I'm being asked about turnover, and I'm like, I, I only bring the people to the table. Quality of hire once here, which is, you know, years later. Exactly. Yeah. But now we're being tasked to measure quality of hire. Yep. Right. So I am now starting to kind of get into the other areas of the business, which I think is kind of the evolution of where our function will continue to go. And I think that's where we're naturally going to have more connection with HR. Um, even internal equip- um, internal mobility is gonna be a big part of that. Right. You talked about white glove service earlier. I'm trying to work on a program right now to create a white glove service for internal mobility. Yes. Yeah. 'Cause more often than not, do internals go through the process and fall off a cliff. They get no coaching, they get no feedback, and then the worst thing happens, they leave the organization. Right. You have now lost a brand ambassador. You have lost a consumer and you've lost probably a really good employee. Right. So making that connection to the internal mobility program, bringing in like a skills taxonomy of kind of combining, is it competencies, is it values, is it, um, core behaviors, whatever the organization uses to kind of create what's my internal pool even looking like. Yeah. What are the skills you brought up workforce planning, connecting that with your HR business partner group so that if you have a retirement of say a CTO coming up in 16 months from now. Right. Let's start talking about that now. Exactly. Like what, what are the skills that are necessary? What are the core behaviors? What are the values, et cetera that you need? Go through your internal pool to identify, do we have anybody that meets three out of five or four of six, you know, that we're looking for so that you can kind of move into that workforce planning. And for the first time, HR could actually become proactive. Yeah. And be the one that's the last one to find out or act on it. Right? Yeah. Um, kind of like talking about into the future, like TA and HR could have a huge impact. Yeah. On the business. If we knew, hey, in the future there's going to be this need. And guess what, we already have figured out how to get these three people that are on a short list to the next level to be the next CTO. To be ready. Yeah. Imagine that. I know it would be incre- Right. I know.

Stef Nikitas: And to think of all of, and then how do you augment the work with the different ways of, you know, is it or the workforce? Is it, is it through contingency? Is it through what? Yeah. AI assistance, but starting with that internal pool of folks first. Exactly. Especially because roles are looking different. Roles are changing. Yeah. Instead of just automatically going and trying to find externally someone who's already done it. How do we skill up the folks that we already do have?

Rachel Allen: Well, it's not even like just the, they've already done it, but like, more often than not, what companies miss is you have somebody internally that's living, breathing and, and performing your culture, your EVP, values. They understand your company, they know the people, they know whatever function that they're in. I would like to think that it's much easier to teach them the job as opposed to bringing somebody in from the outside for certain key positions. Yeah. and teaching them the organization. Yeah. Yeah. They always want people to hit the ground running, but they forget the fact that they're still gonna have to learn the organization. Right. So which of the two evils is lesser? Right. In my opinion at this point. Internal, right? And yes, you, you want to, you acclimate to a culture, but you can't teach or change, you can't make a culture. You can uncover and discover and you can enable a certain type of culture to, you know, be successful. Um, but I think people struggle with of like, oh, I want it to be this and then try to make it that and, and it doesn't work that way. Yeah. And so then when you do bring people from the outside who haven't, who haven't been in that kind of an environment, it takes some time, you have to acclimate to that. And I'm not saying it makes sense for every position, right? Yeah. Sometimes you need an outsider perspective.

Stef Nikitas: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Especially if you're building something completely new that doesn't exist in the company and it's gonna move the needle in like very different ways. Right.

Rachel Allen: But it should be a balance versus the 100%. It does feel like companies either go 100% one way or the other. Correct. And how can we do a little bit of a better balance with that? Exactly.

Stef Nikitas: It goes back to the intent. Yeah. Yep. To the intent. Yeah. Okay. So let's pretend we were gonna write a book. We're gonna co-author, um, Confessions of TA. Yeah. I like that. Was it The Confessions of TA, but Yeah. And, um, a manual on talent acquisition and, and the way that we do our job.

Rachel Allen: What are some things... It's like a recipe book.

Stef Nikitas: It's a recipe book. Add a little bit of this, take away a little bit of that. Yeah. So what do, what would we want to ask people or what should we tell people in this manual to stop doing or to keep doing? What are some recommendations that we would have in this, this manual that we're gonna write together?

Rachel Allen: A lot of times I'm asked like, what, what should managers stop doing? Right. And I think a lot of our headaches come from what managers are doing that they shouldn't be doing. Right. Is it bias, being shortsighted, expecting perfection. Humans aren't perfect. Right. And it goes from the resume to the interview to how they show up. Right. Like, I like to remind managers like, hey, these people are human the same way that you are. If I took your job today and I interviewed you against it. Yeah. Ask yourself, would you sit in the role you're sitting in right now expecting what you are expecting out of people that you hire?

Stef Nikitas: Oh, that's a good.

Rachel Allen: And that is a humbling experience for some managers. They're like, oh, you know what, that's, you're totally changing my perspective. I have to go into it a little bit different. And I would say bias comes with that stereotyping, right. All of the above that managers go into that find, like they find reasons to say no. Yes. Instead of finding reasons to say yes. Yes. I love that. So that's one of the things, yes. Pay managers stop finding reasons to say no, and let's start finding reasons to say yes.

Stef Nikitas: Correct. And it's, and it's, I, a side note on here, someone talked to me a little bit about, um, when you referenced that to AI, when they were talking to their compliance and legal teams, they actually use the example of tax, believe it or not, and the IRS. And so within the IRS, right. You have certain rules and they come, they're the no people. Like you have to do it this way. But when you're doing your taxes, you go to a tax accountant and a tax accountant finds creative ways in which to do within the laws that are written to get you the greatest return. Yeah. So then it's how do you, within the laws and the rules that we have, get us the greatest return versus automatically just saying a no. So how can, how can we get them to think a little bit differently of straight to a no? Yep. And instead no, but. Yep. Or no and, ever. No. And don't say, but. Yeah. No, and let's do it this way. Yeah. Yep. So I think, I think that's a good one. Okay. What else do you think should in our book?

Rachel Allen: I think, I think that's a good one. Uh, let's also start being more human. Um, I think because in that...

Stef Nikitas: What do you mean by that? I know. Isn't that interesting? So I think we, we, we've lost track. So if you think back old school before ATSs even existed and you literally pulled out a phone book and you dialed for dollars.

Rachel Allen: You were calling all the Rolodexes, the Rolodex, and you got the fax machine.

Stef Nikitas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So think back to then you spent a lot more time talking to, to humans.

Rachel Allen: You did.

Stef Nikitas: I do feel like today the recruitment team, um, spend a lot less time talking to humans. So I actually think now that we have technology that can free us up from all this administrative stuff that's, that's been taking up our time. It's a time suck. Yeah. Let's start talking to humans more and adding the...

Rachel Allen: So what I'm hearing is really quality. Yes. Quality time. Yep. Versus quantity. Yeah. How can you, how can you have the quality time on the moments that matter? And, and again, I think being human is gonna be our superpower.

Stef Nikitas: Exactly.

Rachel Allen: So how do we become, you know, lean into being people, people.

Stef Nikitas: Well, I've really enjoyed getting to sit down. You always fun talking to you. We'll have to do this again. Thank you. Future. But, um, it's been a lot of fun. Yes, ma'am. And I guess thank you everybody. Should we thank everybody for joining us in this conversation? Yeah.

Rachel Allen: All right. Thanks for, for hanging with us. Yeah. Thanks for joining us in the conversation today with Rachel and Stef. Yeah. Now if anybody has questions for you, wants to find you, how do they find you?

Stef Nikitas: Find me on LinkedIn.

Rachel Allen: Okay. Same. How about you?

Stef Nikitas: Same. Do I find you Stef Nikitas on LinkedIn.

Rachel Allen: Allen. I guess there's a lot of Rachel Allens. Rachel Allen, SPHR. There you go. Perfect. And you can find me. But I've had a lot of fun. We did great. We did do great. Thank you.

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