Thank you!

Hung Lee (00:00:00):

Welcome everybody. Welcome everybody to Champions of Talent. This is the final episode of what has been an amazing series. I've really enjoyed having conversations with recruiters who have done not only amazing work, but they've also really centered the recruiter experience in doing that work. and it's one of those like very much neglected conversations that we don't have enough in our industry. We care about candidate experience, we care about hiring manager experience. we don't really talk about the recruiter experience. and how can we actually deliver against the former two if we don't have the right environment for our recruiters to thrive? Cause I put it to you folks, if your recruiters are overstressed, they're overworked, they're miserable. No way are they delivering a great candidate experience to anybody. No way are they delivering a great hiring manager experience at all. So we need to think about this.

(00:00:55):

So anyway, welcome everybody to the show. As ever, I just wanted to just do a few sound checks here, folks. I wanted to make sure everyone can hear and see me okay. I should be kind of a little icon somewhere in the corner of the screen. Let me know in, I would say, let me know on the chat. But actually we need to use the q and a for this because we don't actually have the chat facility available for all. So there's the first thing, piece of housekeeping to know. use the q and a feature and let me know in there whether you can hear me okay and see me okay. and then we'll be in we'll be comfortable to be able to go on. Yeah.

Kara Eisenberg (00:01:36):

Looks like we have one.

Hung Lee (00:01:37):

<laugh>. We have one person that can see us. Kara, that's amazing. okay, let's, let's keep scrolling through Joe. Let's let's get this the show on the road. great stuff. This is the topic, folks. Empowering recruiters and elevating recruiter experience. If you are a recruitment leader and you care about sort of the mentality, morale of your team this is the show for you. let's keep going. oh, time for some introductions. So my name is Hung Lee. I curate our recruiting brain food. It is a online community webinar, podcast, all the rest of it. I hope some of you might be members of it, but if not, welcome to join and I'm your host today. and I'm delighted to be introducing Kara Eisenberg to join who's joining us for this conversation. So, Kara, I wonder whether you'd be able to introduce yourself real quick. Who are you and what it is you do

Kara Eisenberg (00:02:28):

Would love to? So I'm Kara Eisenberg. I joined from American Tire Distributors. We are the largest tire distributor in the nation. Been doing this for 22 years on the talent acquisition HR side. Have a team of about 12 recruiters. and we handle the distribution side of things and the corporate side of recruiting. So excited to be here.

Hung Lee (00:02:48):

Fantastic. And by the way, I love TA, folks that work for like proper companies, quote unquote you know, where you're moving stuff around. cause I think that actually gives you you a really good, it. It's, you know, it's a, it's a complex, multi-functional, multi-departmental type organization. that's gonna be fascinating to learn more about how you have optimized the recruiting for that. So thank you so much and welcome to the show, Kara. Absolutely. Thank you. Okay, so here's, we've got a treat. You folks, I dunno whether anybody who's new to to, to this series, some of you might be, some of you might be coming back. So welcome to the ones that have come back and great and welcome to the ones that have just recently joined. But we have actually a, a treat for you in, at the start of this webinar because our friends at Paradox also share our passion for central for, for focusing the recruiter experience and centering that conversation. and we're about to kind of show you a very short movie which I think really does capture the essence of the work we do. and it's gonna be something that is, I think it's about 90 seconds long. So have a watch of this and let me know what you think. once you've seen it play out.

Video Player (00:04:14):

You wake up a champion of talent. This is your walkup music. This is your red carpet, this is your arena. It beckons you with the same persistent call. Find me the ones who can't be found. The hidden gems and unseen successes, the people who will create the future. You could let someone else do it, but you won't. You could crumble under the weight of a million unread resumes. Yet you persist because you know the truth. It's not a war for talent, it's a celebration, a coronation. Finding the future of work isn't a burden. We'd like to extend you the offer, but a blessing. And you at the center of it all, the person behind the people, the champion of talent, and we are the champion of you.

Hung Lee (00:05:59):

How great was that folks? let how, I'd love to know your opinion, having watched that really short movie. what, you know, what you think has was the moment that resonated most with you. you know, there was a number of, they actually really packed in like a lot of recruiter behaviors and recruiter experiences in that 90 seconds, 120 seconds, which I think, wow, bang on. You know, the, the, the text at the end of the day is you're about to eat your takeaway <laugh>, you know, that means you've gotta post a job or something. the, the waking up with a phone, you know, the first thing you do is check, check your, check your email in bed. you know, those types of things. Let me know when the q and a, I use that as a chat. Like what was the moment that you thought was the most resonant for you? I'll ask you that question. Kara, having watched that movie, like, what, what do you reckon that made you think? Yeah, I I totally know where she's coming from.

Kara Eisenberg (00:06:50):

Yeah, I mean, it has all the feels. I mean, as a recruiter it doesn't matter whether you know what role you are in recruiting, whether it's coordinator or you've done this for, you know, a very long time and you're leading a talent acquisition team, you still connect to candidates every day. So the role, the essence of the role doesn't change very much. So that passion for communicating and connecting with candidates is what we love. And so you saw her lighten up when she finally got there, right? And to, you know, interviewing and talking and connecting. but you do have that weight sometimes if, you know, we have some things to fix or, or whatever it is in recruiting with everything else that we need to do, which is a lot, right? It's the resume, you know, seeping through the resumes and, you know, getting to that talent and getting to those conversations.

Hung Lee (00:07:37):

Yeah, it's exactly right. I think there's, there's that, there have the, I feel like positive and negative aspects kind of outlined really, really quite well. and the positive stuff is always where you interact with the, the people. it's a people-centric job. That's where you want to do it. the tough stuff is the, the, the logistics, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the messaging and posting the job and doing all this type of stuff. You know, what that is where we do need tooling to support us. and, and some stats. These are industry status folks. So just have a, a quick read with us on, on these. you know, you look at the length of the hiring process, the longer the process is, obviously the more work that that's gonna require from the people who are managing that process.

(00:08:19):

You know these jobs don't sort of just they, they kinda layer on on top of each other. Sometimes the requirements keep going, you know, every three days something new happens. So it's another 36 day <laugh> project you've gotta roll through. sourcing, obviously we all know how difficult that's been. I don't think there's any marketplace that has been where people have come back and reported, yeah, it's totally easy to find candidates. No it's really difficult. and of course, you know, we've had a real change in sort of, I would say candidate psychology over the last couple of years. You know with covid sort of initially sort of pushing a lot of people out of the market. I think the, the labor market generally became a lot more skeptical of employers generally, and a lot more, okay, you know, what it is you're giving to me.

(00:09:12):

And then sort of last year we had this massive requirement to hire people, you know, this supercharged growth spur. and they had this abundance mindset where, you know, there was lots of opportunities suddenly. And they, the ghosting is a big example of that, where actually it didn't matter so much that they could just like abandon a recruiting relationship. Cuz another one will just be happening tomorrow or even later that day. and now of course when we have cost of living, crisis, raising, arising inflation and so on we have a third kind of mindset, which is risk aversion. You know, it's, it's like, is it, is it right to go and take a risk right now when, you know, the, the, the, the me the messaging externally, the macro sort of environment seems a little less benevolent than we we might have imagined. so yeah, big challenges that we've that we've got these, these things look familiar to you, I assume Kara, right?

Kara Eisenberg (00:10:09):

Oh, yeah. I mean, and no matter what part of our business we're dealing with, whether it's the supply chain in the field which actually, you know, we're gonna talk through how we fix some of those things, but even, you know, corporate thinking about, you know, the recruiters that handle that you're getting down. I mean, I think it's looking at it not transactionally and more as a journey that's worked for us. So, you know, when our recruiters are talking to people you know, I'm thinking about one of my recruiters in particular. they are really getting to know you know, the people that they're talking to, and maybe it's not gonna work out right in that second, you know? And so it's, it's about the long journey where, okay, this person might work, you know, in a year from now. And so if they can see the value in our company and every conversation, you know, then we're able to close jobs a little bit more easily because this person that I spoke to a year ago will fit in here. But the amount of information that a recruiter needs to remember and the detail and all of that is a lot, right? Because you're having all these relationships and you have to hold them up. but that's, but you know, that's one of the things that I think is important for us in our success is that journey piece, and not just like, open a job, close a job, and think of it as just like, you know, very transactional.

Hung Lee (00:11:14):

That's right. And, and given the sort of the nature of the business, I assume there's, there's kind of people within industry that you know, would see we, we would know your business you know, it's not an, an anonymous business out there, didn't know who this organization is. they would d deal with suppliers, competitors, partners of that company. So, you know, there's all kinds of like brand, brand sort of implications to how you interact with candidates also. So, you know, it's interesting to see, you know, that layers on an additional challenge for recruiters. It means that they have to have you know, the bandwidth to have those types of conversations.

Kara Eisenberg (00:11:50):

Really good point. Yeah. And so that's where like maybe the, some of the, of the automation we're gonna talk to. But I'm thinking about this story even at like, the end of one of my recruiters had, you know, they work really hard to get, you know, a candidate all the way through. and, you know, one of the stories that we had was and it comes up quite often at the end of it, you know, right? When this candidate's gonna start they're no longer, you know, they're kind of wavering. Maybe it's not, you talk about, you know, risk averse, you know, maybe it's not the right time and all these questions and hey, I'm probably not gonna join. and so there's this panic setting in and we have this particular recruiter my corporate recruiter met someone for lunch, you know, to talk them through, okay, what, you know, just listening, what's important to you? You know, why is this happening? Why, you know, just getting to know the person. So it's, it's really personal. and you're really getting to know people on a deep level when you're doing this. It's not just okay, open close like we talked about. So it's, it's a lot to hold up for a recruiter. So they have to have the space and time as you just talked about.

Hung Lee (00:12:46):

Yeah, I, I mean, we, we have, it's a great example by the way. Great, great example for within your team. But it's also, I think you know, an example of of, of leading the team well as well, because you can imagine a different manager there. If it wasn't you car over, it was someone who's like hyper optimized on how much time you're spending and you know how many emails you're getting out and all that. Those types of, you know, KPIs, that recruiter won't have the time to go for lunch. It's like, it, it, I, I'm convinced there's the most of the times that, you know, candidates say, oh, recruiters are like this, or recruiters are like that. It is not because recruiters are bad folks or bad characters, it's simply cause they don't have bandwidth. They do not have the bandwidth to do what feels like normal. And that's something we have to address. You know, we have to be able to do give recruiters more capacity to deal with that human side of it.

Kara Eisenberg (00:13:40):

So true. That's an excellent point cuz even just looking at time to fill you know, a lot when my recruiters joined, some of them, they were like, oh, we were gonna, you're gonna analyze my time to fill and it's gonna be an individual component and you know, I'm in trouble if it goes, you know, you know, this high or whatever it is. Because that's what they're used to. And really how we function is, it's, it's a, it's a component for all of us. Like we have a goal of time to fill, but it's as a team, because there's all these different things that affect it, right? There's how our relationship with the hiring manager and, you know, maybe a technology that's, you know, not working or the candidates themselves and there's all these different things, but it's our job to make sure that the, you know, the recruiters are set up for success and that they're connecting to the company and what we stand for as a whole, right? I mean, the importance of the role. The company doesn't know the importance and the horsepower behind what a recruiter does, and that they bring in all of our talent, right? then that's where it needs to start, is just really understanding the importance of the role.

Hung Lee (00:14:37):

Yeah. And, and the, the KPIs are so important. you know, if you haven't got the right measurements. <affirmative>, you're gonna be end ending up doing the wrong thing. So incentivizing the wrong behavior. and those all KPIs, let me know why, why everyone's worked against them. At some level, they do provide a value mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but if they're the only thing that you measure PE people buy, then that's what they're gonna work to. and guess what? A lot, a lot of the stuff that, you know, the, the reasons I think that, you know, recruiters market wide have a general, generally kind of a less than a brilliant reputation is because of the, the prevalence of KPIs at that time. So, so yeah. Very interesting to to review that also. let's keep going.

(00:15:26):

Yes. We all know that's true. And hey, this is, this is where we might be able to do something. So we talked already about how you can take the weight off recruiters mm-hmm. <affirmative> this is just a quick animation folks have a look on. This is, this is Olivia by Paradox. it's basically a conversational assistant. and the theory is, look, when you're dealing with candidates, there's actually ways in which you could have an automated solution that can have this type of dialogue with the candidate in the candidate's own time when they're ready to have that conversation. And it doesn't require the deployment of a human recruiter in this part of the process. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is like interview scheduling for, for instance, how many time, how much time are we spending chasing people around? Are you available too, kind of stuff.

(00:16:15):

You know, get a, a technology that's gonna help you do this. and I think, you know, these types of technologies, I think have started to they've already got the product market fit, in my opinion. They've already kind of established proof. it's just a case where we've gotta do a, the, they're on the cusp of being much more wildly adopted particularly for these high volume type scenarios because the, the, the skill of the recruiter is having those deep human conversations. It's, it shouldn't be focusing on things like, you know booking interviews or asking basic knockout questions, you know? Right. you know, if there's certain questions, can you, do you have a driver's license? There's, there's no reason why a recruiter needs to ask that question, but I should be some automated interface that the candidate can yes no to on a phone. and it looks like, you know, Olivia can do this. And by the way Kara, this is not, like, this is obviously a dummy example, but sort of your business has in fact implemented this functionality into the, in, into the, the business. can you tell us a little bit about the origin of that? So when you arrived into the company, what was the, the scenario and what made you think, okay, this is actually where we need some technology help?

Kara Eisenberg (00:17:37):

Yeah. I think the start of it goes back to, you know, that support and, and knowing the importance of the recruiting role. So we just happen to be in a company where I have, you know, our CEO and CHRO that really understand that. and so we were given, you know, the leeway to find solutions to fix it. So I think this is a long running problem for Americans hire of just, there's turnover in our warehouse for our warehouse and, and driver roles. and so I think that's common for supply chain, but just cuz it's common, you, we need to fix it, right? and so we were tasked with find a solution maybe there's technology that can help. And so we wound up talking to Paradox. and you know, lo and behold, you know, we went through the whole implementation and all that and it really, I mean, astronomically different from the beginning.

(00:18:24):

So we were, you can see right here just even from when we started in 2021 implementing this automation. And so like you said, it, you know, it's, it captures candidates, it screens it you know, schedules for interview with the hiring manager cuz they have to run the business, they have to run the distribution center. They don't have time, like you were talking about, to ask whether someone is a driver's license. So a lot of these things need to be done for them, just like for the recruiter. and so we implemented in the the amount of, so 80% increased year over year in, in, in hiring. but when we implemented Tessa, we also hired some additional recruiters. So it's not just about the automation, it is about the candidate experience and the combination is the most important thing. So Paradox Tessa solved a lot of our problems, but it was that combo as well. So it's, it's having the candidate into the hands of a recruiter or a hiring manager much faster. So within hours, right? You need to be able to handle that conversation and relationship fast too, and have a great experience. and so that was our solve and it, it really has it's, it's pretty, we've, we've kept up with our baseline staffing model in a very, very difficult market.

Hung Lee (00:19:38):

Yeah, that's so interesting. And this, this this chart is really educational. I mean, it, it kindly kind of divides it left and right for us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so at the left hand side of the screen, pre-implementation we're doing like low levels of hiring or much lower than you're now. Yeah. And the reason is primarily because of the logistical challenge of connecting a candidate with the hiring manager. Bear in mind, I think the hiring manager has jobs to do. They're, they're super busy and if they're working in logistics that I would imagine they're typically not sitting in front of a computer monitoring email <laugh>.

Kara Eisenberg (00:20:15):

Right? They're not.

Hung Lee (00:20:17):

They're not on this. So it, you know, it, recruiters are email oriented. Human recruiters definitely are sitting in front of computers looking at screens, typing into keyboards as we saw in the film. We need to understand that actually a lot of the people and businesses we support don't actually do those things. They are in physical labor, they're doing other things. The device they have is a mobile phone. so you need to pull away from desktop orientated communication channels and actually move it into where people natively are. This is true also of, of course for people who do the driving and do the warehousing. <laugh>, again, they're not people that sit in front of the computer typing into keyboards, they're doing other stuff and they're, the device of choice is gonna be a mobile phone. So I, I just had this image of a recruiter trying to pull in a driver that doesn't look at his computer and a hire manager doesn't look at his computer on a calendar. You know, he

Kara Eisenberg (00:21:09):

So complicated.

Hung Lee (00:21:11):

Yes. It's not gonna happen. So this is why.

Kara Eisenberg (00:21:13):

No, I, and people that are not tech, like, they're tech savvy because they're on their phone and they can text, but they're not going to be on the, they're not in computer jobs. Exactly.

Hung Lee (00:21:21):

And we, we forget the fluency required there. I mean, I remember teaching my mom how to get on the internet for the first time. <laugh>, Hey, she's a pro now, don't get me wrong. She knows how to do it.

Kara Eisenberg (00:21:30):

You did your job well then you taught her...

Hung Lee (00:21:32):

<laugh>. No, I think Steve's Jobs did the job <laugh> because I was teaching her to use mouse and keyboard. and she struggled with that because actually she's not interfacing with the thing you're looking at, you're typing in and the screen displays, they're two different devices actually that seem they're just a fuse together. When the touchscreen thing happened, then she got it. cuz she can manipulate the, the information she was seeing. And that's just like, hit, hit me like a, a ton of bricks. And I realized, you know what, this is why we can't get people above a certain generation into the internet and without, without using touchscreens. and why, you know, in future recruiting, when we were trying to recruit multi-generationally, we have to do touchscreen first because the keyboard era is our era, you know, our little component of us kind of learning the internet on keyboards, that's like a 30 year period, let's say.

(00:22:26):

And there's a bunch of people before and after that natively don't use it this way. So anyway it, it was fascinating at that time for me. and I, it just, it strikes me very, very clearly for when you're, you're, you're recruiting for different types of people that aren't necessarily know, know, knowledge workers. They've got the doing different types of work. You've gotta find a way for them to do everything via the mobile device. Like at no point do you want to ask them to do something in front of a computer screen. Cause they mean absolutely they actually have that device. so when you, when you rolled in there Karara did, did you do any like auditing as to, you know, how long it took or whatever it is? Or w was it immediately obvious that that was the bottom there? I mean, how did, and how did you know that that was the case?

Kara Eisenberg (00:23:11):

Yeah, that that this was our problem to solve and he, how to solve it. we spent a good part of six months just listening honestly. and you know, I mean, a big part of it, and I, I still go back to, you know, you know, a company investment and knowing the role and all that stuff. I, I think it's, it's also allowing the recruiters and, you know, whoever's doing it time to digest what the problem is and create relationships with the business and prove out, you know, sort of what we can do outside of like going to, so immediately people think, oh, let's do temp to, to perm. Let's get a third party, or whatever it is in. And maybe sometimes that's the solution. But I, I feel like you need multiple different things and you need to have a very strong internal recruiting department that can support even just that.

(00:23:58):

And so we learned we sat, listened and, you know, and it was hard to listen because really you're the recruiting department now, even though we were all new. and they're telling you what's not working and you know, basically how bad it is and that they don't have anyone at their door and they can't hire anyone and they can't do business and all this stuff. So you really, and it takes a lot of grit as a recruiter to listen to everything going wrong and say, okay, well we're part of the solve now, and so we're going to come up with a solution. So that was part of it. So we, we knew the problems because they, we asked and we just listened and then we, and then we created the solve.

Hung Lee (00:24:32):

Yeah. It it, how did you ensure that you, you weren't pressured to just charge out and get more candidates? Because I think that's is like recruitment, good question. Seems like such an external job, doesn't it? It's like straightaway you arrive, it's like, yeah, you, we need to hide these people now. And then you, you might just say like, charge out. but in fact, no, you, you need to actually do some analysis to uncover what the nature of the issue is before you have a proper solution. How did you kind of resist that, that pressure?

Kara Eisenberg (00:25:00):

Right? Yeah. I mean, we still had to obviously deliver at the same time as like coming up with a <laugh>. So you know, it's both. so, you know, the business has to run our bread and butter is the 120 distribution centers across the nation, right? They, they're moving the tires. the tires have to get to you guys. you know, people, you guys all need tires, so it can't stop. and so our job is to get the people that can move the tires and those kind of things. So we still kept the same broken model and continued to hire. So it, as you can see, it didn't get any better until it zipped up with, with Tessa and Paradox. and that was the same time where we invested and hired a couple of recruiters to handle the additional workload that was coming in and those, and those relationships that needed to be created.

(00:25:47):

So at that same time as test implementation, that's when we invested. So you can see we really didn't get much better. I mean, we were listening a little bit more so you can see it uptick a little bit mm-hmm. But it just shot up the minute you did that. So we had a little bit of success without automation and without some of those solves, but not enough to really get through an environment that we're in right now. Yep. And, you know, and running the co and making sure the company was, you know, moving all of this.

Hung Lee (00:26:12):

Yeah. what about the sort of hiring manager adoption? Like where whenever you were, we were doing any change or, or were implementing technology there, there's always like skepticism within a certain population course within the hiring managers. So, yeah. and that can, if, if you don't get over that, that can actually really sabotage the project. So did you encounter this and, and what was your technique to, to get them to actually, you know, get on board with?

Kara Eisenberg (00:26:37):

It's a great question. That's a great question. Cause if you get this wrong, everything fails, right? so I think think it, I think it it still goes back to creating listening and hearing them and creating that trust and relationship upfront. You can't just dive in and create solution and then train them and say, go. and so I think when, when we've, and they also need to be part of the solution, right? So they're telling you what's wrong, and then you're like, okay, I have this solved, I think is gonna work, but can you join me and be part of how this is gonna work? So there was we called it, it was like a, a seal green team, sort of like a group of distribution high performance distribution managers and, and leaders that worked with us for the solve.

(00:27:17):

And so there's sort of ambassadors, right? So you go out and you're saying, okay, you know, now we're gonna go live and start to talk about the solution with you. And they would, you know, raise their hand in those meetings and be like, well, I've been part of it and I've seen how great this is gonna work for us. And so it's not a recruiting team necessarily saying, we're gonna do this at you. It's with you. You know? And so it's all part of a partnership team. So I think like they think, you know, and they were a part of the solution, not just the recruiting team doing it at them.

Hung Lee (00:27:45):

Yeah. They're, they're not consumers of your product folks. they are collaborators and they're partners mm-hmm. <affirmative> and in fact, they're co-creators of the solution. so this is classic change management. You can't just drop technology and no matter how cool it is you have to get people feeling that they are involved in the decision making. and you're not even just feeling it, like genuinely get them involved decision making were, yeah. you know, this is not pretense. It's like, okay, this is the one of the options. This is our recommendation. What do you reckon? and get them to kind of contribute. By the way, once they feel as if, or anybody feels as if they've contributed to a solution, they're much more committed to making that thing work. because they've, they've invested a little bit, you know, they're, they're, they've, they've actually put their name to it in a certain way.

(00:28:33):

So it just helps create that momentum that the u utilization of technology is gonna go up. I think I wrote a stat somewhere, I can't remember what it was. maybe someone in the crowd can, can enlighten me, but it was, it was some sort of research to suggest the overall utilization of recruitment technology within any particular business was usually around 20, 25%. and that was considered good. So yeah, if you brought something in <laugh>, like 25% of your total audience that was meant to be using it is using, it used to be a big red, you know, big gold starer user, sir. and you think, hang on, that's, that's a really bad shoe, right? You need to have a, everyone using it, so why, like, everyone has utilization issues. So I think a lot of change management techniques a really useful, hopefully we're getting better at that. so again, I think there's another area maybe where recruiters themselves have not been educated or trained to do stuff like change management.

Kara Eisenberg (00:29:34):

Know? Well, it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. And, and honestly, it's not always gonna go smoothly. I mean, even for us, it didn't, right? So, I mean, there's always going to be problems or, you know, issues that you have to solve. So even you see the success here, even with that, we have areas or regions that struggle with technology a little bit, and so, you know, are, are scared of change, right? And so you really have to address those at the time and just listen and then say, okay, but like, try this or try it, you know, let's try it this way and then, you know, take some of their solutions, but also it's a constant sell a little bit for, you know, those type of leaders and training and listening. And so it's, it's, it's not over. and so we're continuing to evolve with Paradox, right? So we will always have, you know, some leaders that just need a little bit more attention.

Hung Lee (00:30:19):

And, and attention's part of it you know, the, the sense that they're getting some sort of service and stuff like this. You can't take human ego out of things. mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and there's also gonna be recalcitrant you in, in any situation. there's always gonna be some, some, you know, diehards that are not never gonna change. so, so I think maybe one of the things that we need to do is also understand that that's the case. you know, 25% might be, might be bad, but yeah, that sounds bad's not really. Hundred, hundred percent is not realistic. so if you're hitting towards, you know, 75, 80%, that's good, and then you can just nudge it incrementally upwards. but where you, where you're never gonna be hitting 100% out. c all of this uptick in performance. Are you articulating this to the business Kara? Like are you showing them, hey, this is what's going on, and, and now what's the response been from from the, the, the, the business you know, post test implementation?

Kara Eisenberg (00:31:21):

Yeah. I mean, well, they see obviously the results and then, you know, their businesses are running smoother, right? Because they have people on the door. I mean, we still struggle. I mean, honestly, we still struggle with turnover. So that engine and that grit of the recruiters is still needed, right? I mean, so you have this, this turnover piece in our industry, so we're still trying to fix that piece. And so part of it is actually a Paradox solution where it's like they, they paired with Traitify, and so that's a personality assessment that they take in it, and it kind of tells the d n a of an individual. so they are thrilled with the results, but we still have a problem to solve, right? And so, part of our solution and we do, we do report out our, our findings and everything pretty regularly is, is making sure that we're giving that quality, you know, you can have the speed here, obviously 53% decrease in hiring, which is phenomenal.

(00:32:14):

But you also have to pair that with, are we hiring the right people, the right person for the right role? and so that solution Tratify has really been a great asset to us, sort of like this FIT score to say like, okay, this is a success profile for a warehouse worker. How does this person fit into that success profile? And, you know, it probably fits in, it's not the one tool that you would use to hire someone like, okay, fit score, not hiring or hiring, but it's a tool to use to like ask more questions. It's, it comes with an interview guide. So that has been a new tool that we just launched that has we're hoping to have a lot of success with maybe diminishing that turnover side of it. We're not the only solution for turnover, but we can help as a recruiting team.

Hung Lee (00:32:54):

No. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we need, we definitely support at the interview stage recruiters and hiring managers. it's, it's one of those areas where, you know, we've been gut feeling it for so long that we just assume that that's gotta be the, the only way to do it. but of course there's other ways in which we could figure this out and, and using some sort of a way to extract different types of information and providing that to the interviewer. I, I think you mentioned it produces things like interview guides, or it produces mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, some directions that you need to explore as a, as a manager, I think that really helps it really helps create a bit more confidence, should produce a better interview, like a more substantive interview Oh, yeah. That you get more information valuable. and I think that's gotta increase candidate experience. I mean, maybe the 99% satisfaction rate will, will bump even further ha further up if you like. because candidates wanna be interviewed in a good way, not just, you know the the interviewers per se.

Kara Eisenberg (00:33:55):

Agree. Yeah. It makes it more personal to that, the opportunities of that particular candidate, right? So, you know, this candidate, you know, struggles with, you know, you know, decision making or whatever it is. let's dive into that a little bit, you know, and, and ask some questions. And so whatever the capability is or the skillset that maybe they're struggling with, just because it showed up there doesn't mean it's so they might have coping skills or whatever it is, and, and they might, it might be fine. but you wanna dive into that. and it's a really good, it makes the conversation so much more interesting than the five standard questions you can ask when someone comes through. I mean, you're gonna ask the same question every candidate. This is about that particular person and that particular role,

Hung Lee (00:34:35):

Right? Right. And, and the, the candidate, if they're experienced, they've heard it all before, if it's just the same cliches and, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> pretty soon they'll, they'll, they'll get they'll kind of disrespect the process, you know, if they feel it's just a performance or just some sort of like ritual, then they'll just give you what you, they'll respond to a cliche with a cliche <laugh>. Exactly.

Kara Eisenberg (00:34:57):

It's an inauthentic interview, completely inauthentic. You're not finding anything out yet.

Hung Lee (00:35:01):

<laugh>, That's a complete waste of time from both sides. so it's, it's great that there's a, there seems to be an appetite within a ATD to, to implement a lot of technology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do you think that was present before you arrived? Or do you think that's sort of you know, is, is there, has there been some sort of change there were, you know, people are very keen to try and automate or, you know, ma increase the productivity using using tools here?

Kara Eisenberg (00:35:28):

Yeah, that is probably the perfect question for our company, actually, <laugh>. Because when I joined, I joined from a software security company and you know, you think tire, you're like, oh, you know, maybe a little antiquated. and then you get to know our company, and we're actually, we consider ourselves a technology company as well as a tire distributor. So we provide digital solutions to our customers. and so very advanced in the digital space. and so that's part of our bread and butter. So it just seeps through, right? I mean, in every function mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like, what can you do that would optimize this process? What can you do to make it easier for the customer? Or whatever it is. So obviously it's sort of how they thought of talent acquisition. Like there has to be something that's gonna make it easier for candidates, it's gonna make it easier for recruiters if we do these things for sales. and so great, great learning experience for me, even just as a recruiter be part of that.

Hung Lee (00:36:26):

Yeah. I, it's, it's now that you mentioned Kara, it becomes obvious, right? I mean, you're a distributor nationally for these physical sort of items. of course people are gonna be very in tune with efficiency, productivity security quality, all of those things are prominent in the, in air. It's gotta be within the, the, the DNA n a of the business. So fantastic. That's sort of bled into the TA side. and, and that's sort, sort of part of the, the culture of the the organization in terms of sort of where the morale of the team has been. I'm talking here about the TA team. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, one of the things that we, we touched on right at the at the beginning of the chat was, you know, hard to be a great recruiter if you're overstress and or maxed out, right? using some of these tuning, have you noticed that the mood has improved? And, you know can you give us have you recorded it? Is there any way in which you could tell <laugh>

Kara Eisenberg (00:37:26):

Yeah, I mean, I don't, actually, that's a good question cuz I'm not sure what the engagement score was prior to me joining. I joined and then we did an engagement score after when we started. Some of the stuff in the engagement scores high for the team, it's in the nineties. but I think prior it, it was probably much lower. I would need to look at that. So that's a very good question. but I think that's, that's important. Like, you should look at your engagement scores and see what the difference is for your own internal TA team. I think that for our team, they are you know, I think that, you know, engage, we're, we're an extension of, you know, the employee value proposition, right? I mean, so it's sort of live. So we're an extension of the culture of the D N A, like we're the ones that talk to people first and get them in.

(00:38:11):

and so I think the only reason why that's been successful in getting even on the corporate side and the sales side, because we've had a lot of success with all our functions is because they actually connect to what we're doing. and they've been part of the solutions and they've created relationships with their leaders first, and we allowed that time and space. And so you can see their passion for it. It comes up all the time. and so I I, I think that success is because of that. and you, and you hear from the hiring managers too, so we often get like, oh, you know, your recruiters are great. So you're, you're listening to the tone of yeah, the organization towards your team. And the tone is like, you know, you have a great team, and I hear it all the time.

(00:38:49):

They, I get like a lot of accolades for them. and so I think that's how you sort of tell combined with some of the survey stuff. but we also pulled out third party recruiting. not that it's not always the answer, you know, we have some good relationships with some third party recruiters, but we became way more personalized with our hiring managers and owning sort of the process of everything, even for sales and corporate and and with the candidate. So then they're, you know, the candidate's dealing with us, the hiring managers are dealing with us, and it's very, very smooth process all the way through. And it's, it's, it's clear, crystal clear what our process is from soup to nuts.

Hung Lee (00:39:28):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I mean, I, I think the third party staffing agencies have absolutely a role to play. I think most of this come from agency side, don't we? Right. so, you know, let's not pretend that that's also not our background. you know, we get that, but there is an implication for things like hiring managed experience and candidate experience Exactly. Or of proposition and what have you. can you give us some detail as to, you know, what the, what the kind of agency percentage of percentage of hires from agency supply were you know, before you arrived and then after cause it, it seems like it's quite a, it'd be a shocking thing to try and like completely reduce it. Zero. But have, is that something you've done? And, and if so, how, you know, what was the mechanism to, to wean people off their, their, their supplies?

Kara Eisenberg (00:40:14):

Yeah, I'm gonna probably go off, I, I wish Brandy, my recruiter who's on here could speak cuz he actually was tracking some of that. But he's on here, but, you know, they can't, they could probably type in the chat, but I think it's, I think he said it was around 60%. and so we were using they were, you know, going into third party recruiting thinking that was the only solution, right? Usually we need that. And, but then the problem with that is, as much as it's, you know, some, some agencies are, you know, you have relationships with them and they're, you know, it's great sometimes they would be like, oh, but that one's not working, so let me get this agency. And so then it was sort of like going rogue. Like there was just too many hands in one job and everyone's in the same LinkedIn and looking at the same candidates and it was just, it was not a seamless or good candidate experience, nor was it for us.

(00:40:57):

So we took a chance and I feel like this was a big deal. and I can tell you in money now we saved 3 million this year in agency fees because we completely owned the recruiting process. And we're like, you know what? We are good. we can own it. we can fill it faster. and not, and, and because we know the company, right, we know the culture, we're connected to it and it works. So it is a little risky. I feel like that's hard. especially cuz like you said, we, we come from agencies, so and we know the value they bring, but we're like, you know what, we can, we can pull this back, we can do it. And it worked. so that's another part of success that has nothing to do with automation, but it's been really great for us.

Hung Lee (00:41:38):

Well, it might have something to do with automation because the, the, the capacity that you now have is something that agencies do not have. So your ability to interact with candidates at a, at this low touch sort of a high speed way mm-hmm. <affirmative> is something recruitment agencies definitely won't have. they're still trying to hit, hit the phones and get this person to answer. and and I think that's a definite competitive advantage for in-house. but but absolutely I think the the, the, there's a, there's a confidence issue there, isn't there? I think the, the higher percentage of external supply, the, the, the kind of inevitably erodes the confidence of the, of the in-house recruiting team. and there is a sense that, you know, if you can get sort of the, the, the in-house crew to, to take on board more of this supply they're just gonna fuel stronger for themselves and, and they are adding more value to to the organization.

(00:42:32):

One of the key tasks I think for anybody who's who's moved moved to in-house very, very good st staring down sort of what's happening in the I, I guess the, the slides here, we're gonna kind of talk a little bit about sort of the also repurposing, but maybe the reprioritization of activities that recruiters are now able to do. so I think this is like a Paradox kind of stats rather than ATD. But it's interesting to just have a look at this to understand sort of what the distribution of work has been. administrative hiring work, I think, yeah, it's, it's definitely a, a high percentage of most recruitment work. If you have no tooling whatsoever, you'd be doing a ton of this. mm-hmm. <affirmative> you, you, and I think if you are actually, let's say a one person recruiter in a, in a business, you are, the ton of it is a admin.

(00:43:30):

But it's not the work that we enjoy. I, I strongly believe, and it's not the work that adds true value to the organization. quick question for you, Kara, with this kind of change in terms of the distribution of activities, it should kind of mean a change of the, the sort of skillsets that would be optimal for a person doing a recruiting. In which case, has that changed your attitude as to what you're recruiting for now? <laugh>, you know, if you need like less administrative type work and more high impact people type work, has that actually fed into how you recruit and build your recruiting team?

Kara Eisenberg (00:44:08):

Yeah so we, we had the beauty of building it from scratch when we launched the automation. So we looked for, you know, that, you know, that type of recruiter that I mean I think all recruiters do, but that really loves the, you know, the connection and that journey with a candidate and really likes spending time rather than some of the, you know, administrative tasks, which I don't, don't know that anyone loves that, but sometimes people are used to spending time there. and so it's more of that I wouldn't say like sales personality, but almost like that personality of, you know, grit and you know, a personality that someone's drawn to to be able to, you know, share and communicate cuz you're really spending a lot more time with people. so it has to be someone that really enjoys that time.

(00:44:54):

And so, you know, looking at that, I think the skillset kind of shifted to that. but we did it at the same time. we haven't had any turnover to have to look for others, but, you know, at this point we are looking at we're, you know, we're focusing on internal mobility in our company. You have to be really, you know, cognizant of the fact that you wanna keep your people today, right? and so, you know, people, you know, might find other opportunities on my team throughout the next year because we're focusing in that way, which is great. and so I will have to recruit potentially, you know, and so what I'll be looking for is where are we now? and potentially, you know, some other, you know, different things. we had people that, you know, needed to deal with a lot of vendors on the corporate side as well. whereas we've diminished that, right? So on the corporate side, you know, it's more the hiring manager and the balance of all of that. So the balance has kind of shifted, but I think it's the same skillset.

Hung Lee (00:45:46):

Yeah, I, I think broadly recruiters have the sort of broad skillset where they could do most things mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they just be optimal at certain things. So, you know, if you had to choose between you know, very close candidates, A and B understanding where you're at in terms of what you have them do is, is, is gotta be a core part of how you make that decision. and as if you have the, the sort of strategy in place where you want to get more efficient, you wanna build you know, more technology, data focused way of working then that obviously needs to inform the sort of people you get involved in into that pipeline. Kari, you mentioned quite interestingly that you are keen on internal mobility and potentially bringing people into your team using that philosophy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do I understand that correctly? Meaning that you're, you're looking at future team members in TA coming from different parts of, at d so people who may not have come from recruiting, but maybe they're in the corporate head office somewhere or may maybe a delivery driver, you know Is that, is that where you're thinking?

Kara Eisenberg (00:46:50):

Yeah, correct. I mean, it's not just for our team, right? I mean, this is, so we're just starting this down this journey, so not exactly you know, in the midst of it, we're in the beginning. but you know, it's, it's, it has to be important to every company. you know, if you have the constant, you know, cycle of people leaving and feeling like they can get better opportunity somewhere else, then you're doing something wrong. We should be able to supply that opportunity internally and showcase our, you know, career pathing and, and different opportunities inside to keep our talent. we've worked so hard to get it, why would we want it to, you know, and maybe if we do, you know, develop it and there's a better opportunity elsewhere, we get that. But, you know, as a whole, whole wanna try and, you know, create those opportunities so we and talent acquisition could potentially have to fill roles from, you know, cross-functionally inside the organization and they would have the skill match to, to do that type of job, to do our job. we would just have to look at what that is. So we're looking at sort of skills matches right now and, you know, what skills would match sort of different roles and, you know, if you're over here in accounting, does that skill match match over here something in it? and so, you know, sometimes people don't see that inside. You know, I, I'm not really sure where I can go if I'm an internal person in cross-functionally, you know?

Hung Lee (00:48:07):

Nobody sees inside <laugh>. you know, the internal mobility is a catastrophe. I mean, if you've ever worked in a big organization yourself, then, you know, by the time you are motivated to look for something else, you are already out the door, you're leaving the company. we, we haven't got internal mobility right at all. So it's great to see that movement starting to occur. Great to see you doing stuff, stuff like this about it. Kara and, and leading by example also. you know, I think recruiters are oftentimes we don't eat our own dog food. Like we often say, yeah, you know, like, the CV doesn't matter. Let's go and hire, you know, for skills. And yet we're the ones saying, yeah, recruiter need five years experience and stuff like this. No, absolutely. I find out what the skills are and then see whether within your business is folks in there that might want to do it and fi find a way for them to discover that opportunity. here, here's the thing. I think about the internal mobility. whenever you kind of lose an employee out of the business, that is almost like a psychological blow to the organization. it's like a small, it's like a minus one to to, to the spiritual health of the organization when someone leaves.

Kara Eisenberg (00:49:20):

Completely agree.

Hung Lee (00:49:21):

Moves internally, that's like a plus one, because Yes, the, you know, the found another opportunity. <affirmative>, the organization's flexible enough to understand we wanna retain this person. He or she stays. Everyone else sees that, right? And then they think, you know what, it's a cool company. It's, it's giving me opportunities. I don't need to exit into this open market, this terrifying open market. I can actually find these opportunities internally. So,

Kara Eisenberg (00:49:45):

Right. And they already know the company. Yeah. They, they know the company. They know how we, you know, how we tick. And then they're moving over and look at all the skill they're bringing with them from, you know, from this role over to the other. So even more innovation, right?

Hung Lee (00:49:58):

Yeah. And that cross-fertilization there'll be stuff, let's say you do, yeah. You hide the accounting person into, into technology. That person will introduce obvious things that was obvious in finance, right. Technology. That's

Kara Eisenberg (00:50:12):

A good point.

Hung Lee (00:50:12):

Move about, yeah. Yeah. It was like, I, I, I thought things like a super low priority item. No, it's like right up the top. Yeah. so yeah, we need to deliberate, almost deliberately circulate people around. I, I, I don't know whether that many companies do even go that far, but I think we should, you know, where you stimulate the movement to say you've done two, that's where we're heading this year. Yeah. Yep. Hey, not to say you're getting pushed, but check out these opportunities. What did you say? You know, folks, let's very quickly I've realized I outta time very close to outta time. So if you have any questions for Carra, anything you wanna know about the technology implementation that was performed there, or any of the results or problems that she encountered, please now use the q and a feature for its true purpose, which is to ask a question. so ask the question down there. We're gonna get to them toward the end. I know there's a few questions there sort of there already. so pop them in there and then we're gonna deal with them in about five minutes. Kara, as we kind of close this conversation I wonder whether, you know, obviously your, your mid journey, there's tons of stuff to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, there's, there's no resting on laurels, anything like this.

Kara Eisenberg (00:51:14):

No, not at all.

Hung Lee (00:51:15):

However there may be a situation where you've kind of looked back on it and think, okay, what have I learned from this? Like, what have been the major mistakes that you've made? You think, okay, next time we've gotta, you know, do it differently. and what are the things that you thought, okay, that was actually a really good call, despite the fact at the time it felt like a 50/50. Can you give us two examples on each there?

Kara Eisenberg (00:51:37):

That's a really good question. I think we took everything we did in the last year and a half with his team. we all did it together, I think was risky. and so I think we did it not knowing if it was gonna work out. I mean, Paradox had done this successfully with other companies, but it's almost like, will it work? You know, they were a hundred percent certain it was gonna work, right? will it work with ours? Will our, with our people you know, embrace it and you know, and, and all these things. And then you're, you're kind of taking a little bit of the control away from yourself. And so I think you know, not sure at the time, but I think each point of decision wound up working well in the end, but was risky at the time, and including when we talked about getting rid of, you know, the, the, the agency piece of it.

(00:52:27):

But I think during it, we had a lot of, hmm, you know question marks. Like even when we took away the the agency piece, we had, you know, a certain function say, but you know, my jobs are are different. And so you have a lot of, you know, question, you know, were we doing the right thing? You know, and so like, then you waiver a little bit and then you're like, A mistake we did make was, you know, let a little bit in you know, okay, we'll let you know these two agencies in. And so you compromise even though, you know, that may be not the right way to go because you're trying to listen and be a good partner. but ultimately I think it's recruiting. And what we've learned from this whole thing was we really know our profession.

(00:53:05):

And I hire people, people smarter than me, right? So when I say we, I say like, my team knows what they're doing and they're really good at it. and so when they put their mind to something, it's going to be successful. They just have to be confident in it. And I think a lot of times we question ourselves a little bit, I do it. So I'm like, Hmm, is that we probably need, need help. Maybe we need, you know, extra hands in this or, you know, we probably can't hold it up just ourselves or, you know, those kind of things. But at the end of the day, I think it's that confidence that we've been doing this for a long time, we're good at it, we can do it. And just sticking to sticking to our strategy and not, and not wavering in that way. I mean, you could be a partner, but know what, you know, what's best, you know,

Hung Lee (00:53:46):

You know, that's so difficult to do, isn't it? I mean, I totally get what you're saying. Big part of listening, quote unquote, is to then respond and say, yes, I've heard your concerns. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> do this, that and the other. And, and you're so right. if you, if you, it's, it's almost like a roof leak. You know, you let one agency and yet two end, and you know what? That's a, that's a roof leak. <laugh>, now it's the dribble. It's, yeah. And then you, you, you've lost your ability to basically say no to future mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's a very difficult and tough call to make. but this is where you've gotta have that maturity and as you say, the institutional confidence. I think as a department, recruiters have, have generally being quite a a department lacking in confidence in, in, in a way that sales doesn't have lack of confidence, for instance.

(00:54:33):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> now, now technology is very confident, but the TA function I think lacks a bit of confidence. and I think maybe that's as a result, we are X agencies, let's say. So we're used to saying yes to every customer cuz we Right. You know, it was a, it was a low commitment. Yes. To be fair, you know, <laugh>, it's a good way of putting it. Yeah. You move elsewhere, it didn't actually cost us anything. So we kind of said, yes, it's default. Whereas once you're in-house, you know, those yeses actually have more to it. There's, there's more at risk, there's more at stake, right.

Kara Eisenberg (00:55:02):

You have to be consistent in some way. so yeah, I, I would think that would be one thing maybe we could do. And we're in this midst of sort of like wavering a little bit in certain areas, so we're not perfect. and then also I think we could use Paradox for more. I think there's solutions that we didn't do and I think that we should have. and so when I'm talking that we've done it for warehouse and delivery, we haven't really looked at our corporate and sales. And so my recruiting teams on those side are still dealing with, let me sift through a lot of resumes. You know, there's, in LinkedIn there's not a lot of, you know, you don't get a lot of clarity on what a human has really done. so you're, you're working with what you, what's there. and so there's probably pieces that Paradox can help us, you know, maybe automate interviews or whatever it is. And we're not utilizing it for that. And I know that there's a solution there.

Hung Lee (00:55:50):

Yeah. That's really interesting. And hopefully, but that's may be the way in which implementations are done. You know, you go segment by segment mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you don't try and like do the whole thing at once.

Kara Eisenberg (00:55:59):

And boil the ocean. Yeah, exactly.

Hung Lee (00:56:01):

Right. You can demonstrate the value in one place and then, hey, you know, this makes sense cuz we're going much faster here than, than elsewhere. okay, let's go to the question. I think we've got a few coming in. we've got, okay, we've got Randy who's asking a bunch of stuff. So let's answer this live. I'm gonna select this one. how did the, the Paradox choice provide time back to your recruiters to focus on higher touch activities? so how did that actually happen? So we know there was overall time saved but I guess, you know, like how, how, how did you make sure the recruiters weren't just diving into more, more roles, you know, and actually spending more time with candidates and stuff?

Kara Eisenberg (00:56:39):

Right, right. I think that that, so how we, how they actually led the way in what was important to move the needle there. So I feel like they led almost me to make that decision. So I think, you know, we have five regional recruiters that each handle a region, so it's high touch. and, you know, they're spending time with their leaders and so they're getting on their meetings and they're finding out what's important to the business, connecting to the business, feeling empowered, you know, on those meetings. And so you know, part of what we did institute was you can provide value, you know, in those meetings and, and beginning of the week and what does it look like? What's the landscape of candidate and the pipeline look like from the automation and from everything we're doing. And that's how you're adding value and okay, where do we need to focus?

(00:57:23):

And, you know, okay, so it's a little low here, even maybe with the automation. So let me do a career fair here and I'm gonna travel to so-and-so and you know, actually meet candidates in person and, you know, meet the hiring managers and talk to candidates and you know, sort of like old school, like going back to, you know, let's invite people into see our space, let's take them on a tour, let's, you know, these things. So it is, it's turned into very high touch and it's almost going back a little bit to making sure that we're really creating those relationships and that people can visualize the job. and so the job itself has turned into more of a personalized experience with the automation. They don't need to do anything until they get into the door. So our interviews are in person, right? So te you know, Tess, Tessa or Paradox is getting them to the door. Our job is to meet and greet them right when they get there. And so that's what they're spending their time on. They're actually in front of the candidate and the hiring manager.

Hung Lee (00:58:12):

Yeah. And I think that's a kind of underrated man outcome of using technology is it actually can be a humanizing output at the end. it's not just a replacement of human recruiters, it's basically allowing human recruiters to do more of the human stuff, right? and that's, and that's where we get the value, you know? so we're rush totally running outta time Kara, so I've gotta kind of end it here. I could, I could talk you to you for, for another hour or two. This

Kara Eisenberg (00:58:40):

Great.

Hung Lee (00:58:40):

Yeah, really enjoyed having a chat with you, Kara. Thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely, folks. We're outta time and I believe we might just be cut off just like this. So I've gotta just rush this sort of outro really quickly. We have completed the Champions of Talent series. Paradox are gonna do some more. They want to do some more, but they want to ask you what you want Paradox to cover in 2023. So I believe it's gonna be an email going around with a survey that's gonna ask you, okay, what topics are on your mind for next year? please put a genuine vote into tho into that survey. Make sure you complete it. and then that will give Paradox basically the right kind of idea to put the sort of conversations on on for you that you want to explore.

(00:59:27):

So I wanna take this moment to say thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for supporting Champions of Talent. This amazing kind of campaign. The video. By the way, if you really like this video, and I think I've never seen a video of this type, which really demonstrates sort of what recruiters do in this, like a super high production way. Make sure you take that and share it with somebody who doesn't know about recruiting. I think people who watch that will really get some flavor as to what it's all about. So thank you for your support on that. Make sure you support each other as you go forward. have a very happy holidays and a happy new year. hopefully we'll see you in 2023.

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