AI And The Future Of Talent Acquisition

Transcript has/will be edited lightly for understanding.

Matt Alder (00:00):

Support for this podcast is provided by Paradox, the conversational AI company helping global talent acquisition teams at Unilever, McDonald's, and C V s Health get recruiting work done faster. Let's face it, talent acquisition is full of boring administrative tasks that drag the hiring process down and create frustrating experiences for everyone. Paradox's, AI assistant Olivia, is shaking up that paradigm, automating things like applicant screening, interview scheduling, and candidate q and a, so recruiters can spend more time with people, not software. Curious how Olivia can work for your team. Then visit paradox.ai to learn more.

Introduction (00:50):

There's been more of scientific discovery, more of technical advancement and material progress in your lifetime and mind and at all the ages of history.

Matt Alder (01:04):

Hi there, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 515 of the Recruiting Future Podcast. The public launch of chat. G p t continues to drive enormous levels of hype about the impact of AI on life, the universe and everything. So what are the implications of generative AI on talent acquisition? How will it shape the development of recruiting technology and what will candidates think of the changing balance between humans and machines in recruiting? My guest this week is the perfect person to give us some answers. Adam Godson is Chief Product Officer at Paradox, and his unique combination of experience in the industry means he has a deep understanding of the potential of AI and the likely future direction of talent acquisition. Hi Adam, and welcome back to the podcast.

Adam Godson (01:58):

Hi, Matt, great to be with you.

Matt Alder (01:59):

An absolute pleasure to have you back on the show. Please, could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?

Adam Godson (02:04):

Hey Matt. Yeah, absolutely. Great to be back. Thanks for the re-invite. I'm Adam Godson. I'm Chief Product Officer at Paradox. And so my goal is to think about conversational AI in recruiting and then to make those things happen.

Matt Alder (02:17):

Now I wanna talk to you about all things AI because it seems to be absolutely dominating. The, the recruiting news cycle at the moment is very difficult to get away from it. Before we do though, by way of context, obviously Paradox has lots of clients, deals with lots of companies, um, and helps 'em with the recruitment issues, all those kind of things. What's going on in the market from your perspective at the moment? On the one hand, we are hearing about economic downturn, recruiters losing, losing their jobs, companies not recruiting. On the other hand, we're hearing about talent shortages and companies not being able to get enough talent into their business. What's it like from your perspective?

Adam Godson (02:52):

I think it's, it's some of each <laugh>. It depends, and I think that's the part that's confusing. We're, we're not in a cycle that is clearly down or clearly up. Uh, it is up in some sectors or regions or industries and down in other sectors, regions, or industries. And I think that's making for a confusing overall narrative. And so it's in many ways sort of an array of different directions, uh, that are, that's happening in the market. But if you look at the, the macroeconomic picture you see some, some employment unemployment that is still near record highs in the US and I'm sorry, near record lows, <laugh> in the US and in and in Europe. Uh, and yet, you know, companies are certainly starting to pull back and think differently and being more cautious. And so I think there's still a lot of anticipation about which way, uh, which direction things will head and, uh, that's creating some confusion in in the markets and I think sometimes some narratives that aren't matching reality as well.

Matt Alder (03:46):

Now, the last time you were on the podcast, we were talking about conversational AI and personalization. Um, and it was probably about this time last year, I think now since then, in the last few months, generative AI has, has hit the headlines, um, big time. And it seems to be the only thing that people want to want to talk about at the moment. I wanted to ask you this question cause I thought you were the perfect person to, to answer it. For everyone listening, can you tell us the difference between generative AI and conversational ai?

Adam Godson (04:17):

Yeah, certainly. It's captured the moment, generative AI has. Conversational AI is, is gonna be, an automated conversation. So the method of interacting that feels like a conversational interface via voice or chat or video, uh, that is two-way between, um, a one or more people or machines where generative AI essentially is talking about content that's being generated for that particular purpose. And it can be conversational. That's certainly what you see with chat G P T, for example. And, and other large language models that are really good at at that, that is, that is generative in that it's being generated so quite literally, but generative also has a part that's not conversational. So the generation of an image, for example, uh, through stable diffusion or dolly or another service like that. So if you draw your Venn diagram, <laugh>, the, the generative can be conversational, uh, and certainly conversational AI can be generative or non generative as well.

Matt Alder (05:18):

Companies have been working on these large language models for, for quite some time, but everything just seems to have launched, um, all at the same time and really caught the imagination of, of everyone. And I think we're already just starting to see some changes happening pretty, pretty quickly. What changes do you think that generative AI will drive in the recruitment industry, and I suppose particularly in recruiting technology products?

Adam Godson (05:43):

Yeah, it's interesting and you, you rightly point out that, that the generative and conversational parts mattered a lot where GPT three, for example, was out for nearly two years. And we'd certainly used it in different ways just as a language model and experimentation, um, uh, before it really caught the public's imagination. And what caught the imagination was the creation of chat GPT into a conversational interface. So taking this language model that's based on GPT three that you really could have asked it most of those same questions before, and it did lots of the, lots of similar things, but making it just a box on a page <laugh> that could then carry on something that was very conversational, made it go to a a million users in five days. Uh, and so for us is sort of that story around conversational as a really important interface in a way that, that people want to communicate and, and like to communicate, um, in a different way.

(06:42):

And then of course the, the next stage was was everyone getting lots of pressure of, oh my gosh, we've been working on this project for a couple of years, get up to market so we don't seem like we're behind. So you saw Facebook and Google and it looked, I think what seems like a, an absolute barrage of things that were developed in two weeks were more about, uh, you know, the release cycles coming up really quickly and people feeling like they had to get something, even an imperfect something out out the door. Um, so, so that's, you know, it seems like it's all happened at once, but lots of, lots of research has gone into these.And from a recruiting standpoint, there are lots of things, uh, that, that are, uh, that are going to change. And, and you, you rightly mentioned that it, you know, in technology, um, uh, many folks will change the way that those, that those interact.

(07:28):

And, and, and for me as I boil down recruitment, it's always really been about three things. And I've stared at the ceiling many nights thinking about <laugh> what it is that we actually do. And it's really about, decisions. So decisions about a resume or an interview, it's about conversations and then it's about automating lots of stuff. We call though the BS of recruitment, the boring stuff, but, uh, scheduling interviews, sending off for letters, all those things. And the latter two really changed with this technology. So our ability, ability to, to automate things, but it's really that second one to be able to have, uh, interactive conversations in, in lots of ways that weren't really possible before. Um, and so being able to have a, a, an automated chat and being able to, uh, that that's really high quality conversation, being able to get information from a hiring manager, get information about a labor market all in a chat interface with, uh, a manager or a recruiter, that's what is gonna be substantially different going forward.

Matt Alder (08:29):

Paradox have recently announced that you've launched a conversational ATS based on the, the conversational AI that you use. What is a conversational ATTs? How's it work and what kind of difference is it making? Yeah,

Adam Godson (08:44):

I think the, the, the difference in, in the way we have gone to market in the past and releasing a conversation of ATS was really stating <laugh> what we are, uh, in, in that way. We, it's a product that's been in market for some, some time where, um, we for years sort of sat on top of existing ATS and, uh, folks said, oh, can you make my ATS conversational? And then slowly, as people ask for for certain markets, we built some of the underlying technology. And so to be clear, we still can do both. So happy to sit on top of Workday or SAP or other systems, uh, that help make them conversational, but also can now stand alone, uh, and, and be able to do offer letters and some of the automations and the statuses and workflows and the things that you might find more traditionally in, in an ats. Uh, so being able to do the whole job, uh, is the, the primary difference, but doing it conversationally and, and being able to manage those conversations with, uh, with candidates, uh, and being able to, um, uh, gather information conversationally and remove the friction that so many ATSs have in, uh, throughout the process and do that through automated conversations, which leads to faster time to hire, uh, and higher candidate satisfaction.

Matt Alder (09:56):

Are they the kind of results that you're seeing with the clients that you're working with? Is there anything, anything surprising that's coming out?

Adam Godson (10:02):

You know, I think, I think the amount of time reduction we can make through conversational AI and mediums like SMS and WhatsApp, for example, continues to surprise me. We, of course have done work with lots of restaurants and retailers like McDonald's and, and others for, for, for years and made substantial gains, uh, in those processes. But just last week saw the, the numbers from a client that went live about two months ago, and, uh, time to hire went from 31 days to nine and <laugh> and, and just all the metrics with, with massive improvements. And so even after three and a half years of, of doing this, um, seeing those types of huge gains, uh, continues to, to surprise me, um, uh, in a positive way.

Matt Alder (10:52):

The last time we spoke, we were talking about personalization and how conversational AI can drive personalization in the, in the recruiting process. How have things developed since then? Are we seeing more personalization? Are there more things possible? What do you think could be personalized in the future?

Adam Godson (11:11):

Yeah, I, that's where I think large language models and generative AI are, are changing the game as we speak for that. So being able to look at someone's LinkedIn profile or their cv, looking at a specific job and, and being able to, to create, um, synergy to say, why are you a good fit for this job, given the, the experience you have, the job requirements, the, the culture of the company and being able to automate some of those conversations is, is really exciting, uh, to be able to really personalize in that in that way. I think the other thing that, that we're seeing is, um, some, some need for, for personalization and some more content in the, in, in, in hiring processes as more companies use quick apply frameworks. So certainly this has caught lots of the US this year, uh, with Indeeds change to pushing hard on Indeed apply and others, uh, ZipRecruiter and, and et cetera, to, um, essentially have the candidate apply without ever visiting the career site.

(12:15):

So simply sending all the candidate details through the, um, through the, through an API. And so what that has led to is lots of candidates that have applied to a, a job but have never visited the career site of the company. Uh, and so then how do you do the employer branding activities and, uh, that you might have done, uh, on a career site, but do that throughout the process in a more linear fashion. Uh, so sending people things before the interview or after they apply or write messages at the right time, and then being able to personalize those, uh, as, as, uh, candidates go through the funnel, I think there's tremendous opportunity to take what was a transactional experience on a career site and make that experiential throughout the life cycle of the recruitment process.

Matt Alder (13:00):

So do you think that's people applying for the job than then finding out more about what it entails? So what is it sending people video, having conversations, letting people talk to Harry managers? How do you think that'll evolve?

Adam Godson (13:13):

I, I do think it's, uh, some, some content and again, right content at the right, at the right time is the, is the key principle of that. But I think the, the risk in quick apply frameworks, et cetera, is that we, we don't get all the, um, polarizing messages in front of job seekers as we otherwise might, right? Employer branding done well is polarizing to say, uh, you're the type of person that fits really well here or you're not, and to be clear about that. And so I think what, what happens without some of that content at the front end of the process is you've gotta, um, uh, build that into the, to the middle of the process. Uh, and so letting people, um, before they come to the interview, understand your values, why you should work there, if this is the right place for you, and if not, opt out. Um, and, and, and just be sure that we're getting the, the right people for the job. And the the risk is that we just move the bottleneck down, <laugh>, uh, down the funnel one step and make the actual improvement. Uh, the possibilities are that we can communicate well throughout and we actually make some, some gains by removing some friction at the beginning.

Matt Alder (14:18):

Absolutely. And I think it's that it's that kind of transparent communication that, that people want from the recruitment process. If the job's not right for them, they want to understand that and understand why. So I can only see that as being a really good thing for the candidate experience.

Adam Godson (14:33):

Yeah, absolutely. Transparency, it's what people want <laugh>. So no, no one wants to waste time in a process that's not right for them. And so if, you know, our, our job as professionals is to help remove friction of course, but also help people make decisions. And it doesn't do a company any good if they hire the wrong person, the job, uh, that tends to go go poorly on all counts. And so, uh, being sure that we're as clear about the expectations, the type of company to make it work for the long term, uh, as quickly as possible to avoid wasted time.

Matt Alder (15:03):

It feels like we're on the edge of some massive changes in, in recruiting, sort of being driven by technology and the sort of the, the continued disruption around the economy, people making decisions about their careers differently, our host of things going on that are inevitably gonna drive a lot of change to to, to what we do. What do you think the next two or three years are gonna look like for the, for, for recruiting and talent acquisition? <laugh>?

Adam Godson (15:32):

Uh, a bit of, a bit of cynic might say it's gonna look like, uh, automation, uh, some, some, some overdoing of automation, probably backlash against automation and then repeating that cycle several times until we find the right amounts <laugh>. Um, so, uh, but, but I do think that that the, the way that people perceive and feel about technology is going to matter a lot. And, um, they're going to be a lot of new technological possibilities for how we, um, interact with conversational AI and with companies and how we use them and people's reaction to them is gonna matter a lot about how we use them in the future. So, so I, I can imagine, um, a, a substantial backlash to mass outreach, for example, of, of companies looking to screen candidates from, you know, on, on passive sourcing for a particular role through really good conversational AI and candidates getting really frustrated and wanting to say, you know, talk to human. I only talk to humans. Um, and so I, I think it, it's, we're gonna find out lots of wrong ways to do things as a, as an industry, uh, and then we'll focus in, adjust and find the right ways. So I, I think it's gonna be a tremendously interesting time as this technology evolves.

Matt Alder (16:51):

And to build on that, as a final question, so you mentioned how long technology companies have been developing large language models and how you'd already been using that in the work that you do. Are there any other game changing technologies out there that everyone in the kind of technology industry is aware of but haven't hit us yet in tele acquisition that might change the game? Again,

Adam Godson (17:13):

You <laugh>. You know, I, I think the key will be like the application of, of this technology for, for language models. I think this is gonna be a several years journey of really refining the application layer and how this technology gets, gets used. Um, there are, are are other interesting technologies being incubated, image generation, sort of text to video. You can imagine an experience that can be built today with, with a pretty life-like, person, being able to interview someone that's fully automated, uh, voice cloning, uh, deep fakes. Um, so, so some of those experiences are, you know, really, really good where they, where they, where they haven't been in, in the past. And, and the conversation with many of those technologies is, is just shifted from not can we do these things, but to, should we do these things?

(18:09):

Are they something that people want? Are the experiences that feel good? I think I've continued to argue just with some friends conversations over, over a drink that so many times it's actually the emotional element that someone cared to take the time to talk to me, uh, more so than, uh, did the, the video was the video smooth on something. And so I think some of the emotional elements, uh, are yet to be worked out. Understanding and poking at those questions of what, what role should technology play in recruitment process versus, you know, where exactly do we have humans?

Matt Alder (18:44):

Adam, thank you very much for talking to me.

Adam Godson (18:46):

Thank you, Matt. Always a great, a great conversation. Appreciate it.

Matt Alder (18:50):

My thanks to Adam. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple podcasts on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search all the past episodes@recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, recruiting Future Feast and get the inside track about everything that's coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I'll be back next time and I hope you'll join me.

Advertisement (19:51):

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